Image Description: A grainy black and white image shows someone tied up with rope and nude in a chair, a black hood is over their head and tilted to the side in what looks like exhaustion. A black bar with the word “censored” covers their chest.
Thank you for joining us for our first ever episode of Disability and BDSM! This is the first of many episodes dedicated to disabled people who love BDSM. This is a personally run and funded project, so if you enjoy this episode please consider subscribing.
Narrator: Cherry Recently uses all pronouns, as an agender dominatrix they bring 10 years of experience. Her practices focus on sadism, power exchange and lifestyle fetish. They are a white ashkenazi jew and disabled.
Conducted over Zoom/Video Conference on July 16th, 2023
Below is an edited transcription of our conversation.
Noor A. 0:00
It is July 16, 2023. It's 2:19pm for me, I'm here in Seattle. My name is Noor, I use they/them pronouns. And Cherry, I would love if you could just kind of introduce yourself a little bit—name, pronouns, and anything else you want to kind of share.
Cherry 0:18
Sure. My name is Cherry Recently, dealer's choice on pronouns. Really, whatever makes you happiest. I do like it when people call me she, that just feels special, because most people don't because I look like this. But yeah, fine on that. I guess. Anything else you want to know about me? I call myself an agender dominatrix.
Noor A. 0:36
Okay, cool. So the first question that I have for you is like, where, or what, is home to you?
Cherry 0:43
Oh, fuck, that's a good question. Man. Probably the 20 blocks between 80th and 100th, in Manhattan, the Upper West Side. That's where most of my family is, long history up there. And I've moved around a bunch but that's been pretty much the consistent address yeah, between 80th and 100th on the west side.
Noor A. 1:11
And you said your family's been there a while?
Cherry 1:14
Yeah, I mean, we're sort of dispersed now. Because who the fuck afford New York City anymore? But yeah, that's - a long, long upper west side Jew roots yeah.
Noor A. 1:26
Would you consider yourself someone that's like, I'm only - I'm an NYC person only? Or do you travel other places, too?
Cherry 1:32
I don't, I don't - look, it's the greatest fucking city on Earth! - but no, no, not at all. I don't live there right now. And I love where I live. You know, I live in a much smaller place. You know, I don't go out much. So the idea of paying that much money to live somewhere for a social scene I'm not going to engage in doesn't make sense for me. Yeah.
Noor A. 1:56
But you still think of that area as home?
Cherry 1:59
Well, yeah, just because I know it's - you know, I've been moving pretty much my whole life. There's been a couple mainstays. But that's that's just where my family's been. You know, I know it like the back of my hand. It's just, yeah. When I'm there, it's like, yeah, this - this place makes sense. This place makes sense. I know what this place is. I know what to do. I know where everything is. So.
Noor A. 2:24
Would you say that BDSM has been part of your life since you were young?
Cherry 2:33
Yeah, yeah. The first time I got someone alone in the closet, I tied them up.
Noor A. 2:36
(chuckles) Do you remember, ish, what age that was?
Cherry 2:40
Young, gotta be like six, seven maybe. Yeah. I also used to watch the Scooby Doo episodes specifically for when Daphne gets tied up.
Noor A. 2:52
Oh, see? That - that is interesting. Because I feel like, was there other, like, media that you remember being -
Cherry 3:01
Hercules - because she gets chained at the end of that movie. So much that my mom always says that I had a crush on her and I didn't, I just got flustered when she got chained to stuff.
Noor A. 3:11
You know, one of the other things that we're talking about today is like, we're talking about BDSM, we're also talking about disability. Is being disabled something you would identify with as a young person also?
Cherry 3:24
No, I - not as a young person. It's something I - because again, it's mental illnesses. And you know, I've been crazy the whole time. And it was pretty apparent when I was a kid. But I was just raised in a household that was very much just like, handle it. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is what it is. There was no discussion that, you know - I mean, a little bit like, I got sent to therapy when I was a kid. But it's funny, I actually got explicitly told that I didn't have autism, because I could look people in the eyes when I was a kid.
Noor A. 3:56
Yeah.
Cherry 3:57
And then yeah, later in life, kind of realized that and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Noor A. 4:03
For sure.
Cherry 4:04
No, is the short answer to your question. Not as a kid, no.
Noor A. 4:07
Now - with what you know now, and the vocabulary you know now, would you like "post humorously" identify with disability in your childhood?
Cherry 4:21
Forgive me, are you talking about how I felt as a child? Because I definitely identify as disabled now. And so I was disabled then because I-it's the same person and the same issues. Is that what you're getting at? Are you looking for something else?
Noor A. 4:37
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm trying to explore is like, if you had had the vocabulary or space or ability to be able to name -
Cherry 4:47
Okay.
Noor A. 4:47
- those things at a younger age, would you?
Cherry 4:50
So like, if - would I have wanted to have that vocabulary for myself as a kid and the sort of the like the treatment and the or whatever comes along with that?
Noor A. 5:02
Yeah.
Cherry 5:02
I think about that a lot. And that's a really good question. And I go back and forth, because on the one hand - I mean, I also grew up in pretty... my childhood was not the greatest, but um - so I (chuckles) don't know how much that would have helped, having that as just another thing. But also, and I want to speak very specifically for me, right, because I think everyone's got different ways. And I'm not trying to say what everyone should do. But I think that there's a way given what I have, and who I am that I'm almost glad that I didn't, because I just had to be a person. You know, and because no one put that label on me. Like, I knew I was weird. And I knew I didn't, I wasn't able to like connect with people at all and but I also didn't want to, but you know, and there was a lot difficult lot of difficulty believe me with with just my mental health at times, but it forced me to figure out how to be - different in the world. And I'm grateful for that, though I have to give if I had had like, again my family wasn't the greatest situation, but I had some figures outside of it. Like my uncle who was a painter who had a lot of PTSD and like, schizophrenic, you know what I'm saying, would like literally, like, sees ghosts and shit. Um, and he kind of took me in and I learned from him. I say, I learned from him how to be crazy and alive at the same time. And like, yeah, he's doing different shit. He's in his basement all fucking day. You know, but he's fine. He's, he's, he's got a life. He's got friends. He's got a he's got love in his life. And that was, I think, but definitely without him. I don't know. But definitely grateful, I guess for both that, and just figuring out how to Yeah, like, fuck you. Yeah, I'm a fucking strange motherfucker. Like, yeah, whatever.
I feel like that sounds like it intersects really well with being like, yeah, I was tying kids up in my closet at six. Right?
Yeah, I, there's whatever other people are doing, I have no clue. I don't, I don't know. And that and that relates to BDSM as well. It's so funny. Like, the things that I thought people were doing. And then actually forcing myself to go interact and have conversations is like, oh, a lot of us are doing very different things. One of the things, for the longest time I used to get so on my high horse about the - gonna blank on the word - but like, the nomenclature around like, play, you know, people like oh, like I would also go like you ca-it's so dangerous. Like, this isn't play this is very serious, like, take this seriously. Like this is, I'm not having fun right now. I'm, like, locked in. I'm working right now. And then I realized after talking to people like, oh, no, you guys are having fun. You guys are playing. Like, oh my bad, sorry. [laughs] Which is a beautiful, wonderful thing. You know, it's just something a bit different from the way that I approach things, which is how I found most of my life goes.
Noor A. 8:18
When you say "play," are you talking about play as a child? Or you're talking about play in the scene?
Cherry 8:23
I'm talking about within BDSM.
Noor A. 8:25
Yeah.
Cherry 8:26
I yeah, I - sorry, I might not have made that clear enough. I mean, like, the way that the scene and the community talks about things and the words that they that they used, I was always very anti-play. And I'm still very anti-scene. I call - I say "sessions" not "scenes" because I'm not acting or pretending.
Noor A. 8:48
Can you tell me a little bit more about like, what it's like for you? You said it's not acting, it's not pretending. Right? So what what is it like for you when you are in a session?
Cherry 9:04
I have to try harder in every other situation, in that, in those situations, in sessions, in heavy power exchanges with that, that's a million times more comfortable and natural to me than like, going into a bar and having a conversation with somebody. My - and I mean this - my sincere ideal form of human interaction is you're attached to something and I have tools, right? Like, that's honestly just how I, I would legitimately prefer that in most interaction, and also within D/s and the things that I do and I talk with bottoms about this, or subs before things where it's just like, I'm not putting something on to get into like, this is just this is the most normal thing I could possibly be doing. Like my entire intimate quote unquote sexual, and or not, experience has pretty much been this like, It'd be weirder to me to, I don't even know what vanilla people do, like I, I call stuff vanilla that people are like that's not - that's very very kinky. And I'm like, and I'm not trying to - it's difficult to talk about this because I don't want to fall into that trap. I feel like a lot of tops, and it's They're so annoying. And there's so much ego about like, "I'm the hardest core," you know, all that bullshit. And I don't want to do that, because I think that's so stupid, and it doesn't matter. But sincerely like, for me, my experience of sexuality is 100% power and violence. And that's just how I've always been. And so just, that's just what I do.
Noor A. 10:44
How do you find that your disabilities interact with that expression of like power and violence and being present and not having to do specific, having that control? I guess I'll say.
Cherry 10:59
Well, the control is super important and also, the - I feel like BDSM forces people to be a bit autistic in that, like you need insanely clear communication. And I think that there's - and I've, you know, I've never done a study, but um, I think that there are a lot of neurotypical people in that way. Neuro -sorry, what's the other one?
Noor A. 11:22
Neurodivergent.
Cherry 11:23
Thank you, neurodivergent -
Noor A. 11:24
I got you.
Cherry 11:24
Neurodivergent people who are attracted to the scene and that way of interacting with people, because you're sort of just like, oh, this is great. Like this. Yeah, this is exactly how I want to communicate all the time. Like, please list out for me in clear bullet points, exactly what you're feeling and exactly what you're thinking right now. Right? So that's, that's, I love that. And that's hugely important to me. I straight up don't know how to talk to people otherwise. And also, I mean, I don't know how much that relates. I don't know, I get back and forth with people about like, the Why are you like this? Why do you why do this thing - I think, for as much as psychiatry, and it's like, there's more than just autism, I've been diagnosed with so many things, I just say I'm just generally crazy. But I think as much as psychiatric language and therapy is incredibly helpful, and super support taking drugs for stuff if, if that's what you what you got to do, I think that there's a side to it, which that this happens in like, I think leftist movements and in general, where a very academic language, which means a very specific thing, and is a very studied thing and is amongst dedicated their entire lives and is incredibly value. It like, language disseminates down from that into the popular culture, which then uses words in a very different way in a more general way in a more - right? And then, but with that psychiatry thing, like I think people can get a bit lost in that. Just specifically with like, why am I like, like, Who the fuck knows? Like, there's a combination of nature versus nurture versus the 1000 individual things that you deal with? Like, yes, your trauma, but also, you know, like, it's a million things. So I say, and I have a lot of conversations with bottoms and subs about this, because one of the things I do I call it fetish tailoring, which is like You're like working with somebody, I mean, I call it making them worse. But right, you're like really trying to expand fantasy and like help and assist, or push somebody sort of deeper into that. And I we have a lot of conversations about, you know, people's traumas, or people's experiences or what they want, how they want to be flogged, whatever, something like that. And they think I say a lot that I don't care so much about why, I care about what and how, right, like, I don't care why you want that. I want to know what you want. And then I want to know how to how to make that happen. And I also this, this kind of just the way that I move through my life, though the therapy and psychiatry is awesome and I super support it. It's a beautiful thing.
Noor A. 14:01
Yeah, I do think I understand, though, or I don't know how I'll be able to how well I'll be able to articulate it. But I feel like I understand what you're saying of - You know, it's kind of like, I remember, maybe this is a bad comparison. But I remember there during like the first queer kind of like, gay marriage sort of push there was this idea of like, Oh, I'm born this way. I'm born this way. Like, I don't have any control over whether I'm queer or not. And I remember very much thinking like, why the fuck doesn't matter if I choose to be queer or not.
Cherry 14:35
Exactly, exactly.
Noor A. 14:37
Yeah. And so that's yeah, that sounds like kind of like what you're saying of like, I don't really care why this gives you pleasure or why this gives you or why you desire this, what I care about is that you do want it and that's dope and hot and let's do that.
Cherry 14:56
Yeah, exactly. I don't even care if it's pleasurable for you, to be honest.
Noor A. 14:59
Right. Well, I think pleasurable can be kind of like a and you know, honestly, actually, let me ask you like, what, when, when someone says pleasure, what do you think of because I think of it as being very much a big thing that includes both pain and you know, all of these other things.
Cherry 15:17
I'm being a bit facetious, but, uh, yeah, cuz it's just talking - using positive words for things in BDSM was always a bit funny because it's like, Oh, that felt good, but it's like, no, it didn't. But there's something - yeah. Oh, 100 totally agree with you on that. I was just, I was just making some fun. But yeah.
Noor A. 15:35
No, you're - I remember like the first time I ever played with a cilice with a top.
Cherry 15:40
Ooh.
Noor A. 15:41
They were, they were, you know, like, I was very much like, not having a great time while it was being used as I wanted. And then afterwards, I was like, wow, I really loved that cilice. And they were like, the, you know, they were joking with me, but they were also serious. And they were like, it didn't seem like it.
Cherry 16:01
Yeah.
Noor A. 16:02
And that's true. You know, like, it did suck, but I also was like, I love that. [laughs]
Cherry 16:07
There's, there's something there. Man, I that's, that's such an interesting thing about like, it's funny because I I'm a baby when it comes to pain. I'm, you know, I'm like a hardcore sadist. Right? Like I practiced and studied, I've got a whole particular thing about, you know, more advanced consent structures. Like, I think CNC is a terrible term. And it's stupid and useful. And I've written a lot about it, but sort of just like, that's what I'm looking to do is I want, what I'm most interested in, is taking someone to the place where they want to go home, and then continuing to go, right? So like, in that place past that, which is so far beyond enjoyable, in any way, right? But it's like, you have these experiences with these people. And then, oh - you and you know, it ends and it's and it's over, and you're, you know, after care, and you take some time, the wrong thing, but then you're like hanging out and having a good time. And you know, you have a discussion about it, and people want to come back. And I don't get it. I don't fucking get it at all.
Noor A. 17:08
[laughs]
Cherry 17:08
I think I think y'all are fucking nuts. But you know, God bless you. Thank you, because I'm nuts in a different way. So we match up.
Noor A. 17:15
We complement each other. Yes. So I think we kind of talked about it a little bit, but I want to ask the question again, just to see if there's anything more that we can kind of say, but for you and your disabilities and the way you practice in BDSM, how do you find they complement each other?
Cherry 17:33
Oh, man, that's a interesting question. Um, I think a lot of the - sorry about that - the coping, I think a lot of one thing is a lot of the coping mechanisms, a lot of the coping mechanisms that I that I've, that I've learned over time for dealing with people come in really, really handy. Right? Which is like, how do you, you know, have a very formal, almost algorithmic approach to socializing, right, and like learning about a person and connecting with with with a person. And I'm just gonna keep it like, again, it's all, it's all up there. So I'm trying to find a train of thought that actually makes sense. But I find that one of the reasons I say like, my preferred form of social interaction is essentially torture, is because, like, the information content is so much higher, and that, you know, like when, like, we're sitting down, and it'll take me months to, you know, to get to know you, right? If, if, if, because there's all these different rules, and there's different ways of talking that don't make any sense to me, things you're not supposed to say, when I'm in that. And that's what I think a big piece that attracts me, and there's a big piece that I like about it's like, I'm really learning you, who's there. And you're gonna answer my questions. You better answer them well, and in great detail, otherwise, I'm gonna make you, right? And so it's, it's almost, I feel like so much of my socializing because of my difficulty, sort of, my fundamental inability to, it gives me a space to - I don't know if it would be considered socializing, but it gives me a way to explore other people in a way that I don't think I'm able to otherwise, right, because like, there are things I'm just never going to know about a person unless I'm directly told that by that person. So being in that space, and sort of driving nails into like a digging, you know, with like a fucking scalpel of like messing around in there. I think you learn, you - Yeah, you learn a lot about a person. I think it's the most the probably the most intimate thing a person could do. There's a this is a fake quote from Firefly, but it's a great quote by a fake general. And it's, you know, "Eat with a man for 30 years, know his wife, know his children, be his friend. And then you know on the 30th year tie him up and hang him over a volcano and on that day you will meet the man." Right? If you want to have a real quote, I think it's, I can't pronounce it, Goethe, Goethe? "Men being - Man being what he is finds what he is in moments of extremity." So providing the extremity, I think. I don't know it just yeah, it helps you learn. And I'm very deeply curious about other people, because they're basically black boxes to me.
Noor A. 20:52
So, you had mentioned at the beginning that you are a Dom. And I wanted to ask a clarifying question. Are you uh, are you a Dom in your personal life? Are you a sex worker slash pro-Dom? Or a little bit of everything? You know -
Cherry 21:10
I'm I'm, like I said, this is just me like this is there's no switching so my my all my intimate relationships besides, you know, friendships that I've had for, a small number, but like friendships that I've had for many years and value very, very deeply. Every single other intimate relationship I've ever had is, through that. It's just the way that I feel most comfortable. It is my way of being intimate. I like I said, I do. Yeah, I do. I do some pro stuff, I do - It's kind of just what I do. I like doing it. Yeah, I'll do it for money. I'll do it with my friends, I'll do it. Yeah, just kind of, I like doin' it. I do it with everybody, I would love to torture every single person I've ever met. 100 percent.
Noor A. 21:58
A true sadist through and through.
Cherry 21:59
Through and fucking through. Through, the less you like it, the more I like it.
Noor A. 22:05
So it sounds like for you, you enter a session the same way, whether it's with a friend or with like a client or with you know, something like that.
Cherry 22:19
Yeah, anything that's happening is the most normal thing that could be happening. Right? So it's just, you know, that's a person you want it - I mean, it changes the more you know somebody, you have to - the first time you gotta, you know, you're much more formal, you're much more detailed, you know, and then you get to know each other a bit. And then, you know, you don't have to write a contract every time or, you know, there's, there's, there's levels to it. And, you know, with people you don't know so well, there's safety concerns, and, you know, you want to be careful about what space all and all that also like your own legal exposure, and, and those sorts of things. But in terms of my mental space, there is no shift, walking into a session and walking into the grocery store is the same thing.
Noor A. 23:04
Have you had sessions with people that also identify as disabled?
Cherry 23:12
Yeah, actually a whole bunch, there's a lot of chronically - a lot of chronic pain, um, in bottoms and and and in subs, so yeah, no, totally.
Noor A. 23:27
Do you, as someone that also identifies as disabled, do you approach those scenes any differently?
Cherry 23:35
Um, no, but let me add a caveat, which is that I'm very explicit, and very formal, and detailed in the conversations and the negotiations that we have. So I'm saying no, only because like, if someone has something that needs to be brought up and accounted for, then I make sure that that's there but I'm not doing a different thing for disabled people and not disabled people. It's just like, if you have that then let me know let me know what it is, like I've got a whole template that I've developed that's got a whole section for medical conditions and like, if this happens, should there be what response and and things like that.
Noor A. 24:19
Would you actually mind talking more about like what are the questions you think -
Cherry 24:24
Let me pull it up.
Noor A. 24:25
- are most helpful? Yeah. Or like Like if someone were like a pro Dom that wants to be more conscious of like how to be intentional with like, you know, with accommodations and etc. What are some questions you might suggest?
Cherry 24:42
Let me find - one moment. I -
Noor A. 24:44
Okay, yeah.
Cherry 24:45
I have my template somewhere in here. Only I organized my computer. I that's something I got I got I keep thinking about getting a sub to do that. But I'm for some reason I'm like, don't look at my computer.
Noor A. 24:59
Because you never know what's there from like the first year that you got it that you're like, oh no -
Cherry 25:03
Exactly.
Noor A. 25:03
that's still on there? [laughs]
Cherry 25:05
There's a bunch of stuff with my government name on it. And I'm like, don't do that.
Noor A. 25:09
Yeah.
Cherry 25:10
Because I do have it. And I've done a bunch of work on, I even sent it around to a bunch of other folks within the scene, because I was planning on making it public. I just got super busy. But you're not going to... Alright, so, um, I think really, I can't find it. So I'm just going to not going to waste any more your time. I'll send it to you when I when I'm when I'm done but it won't help you with with the with the with this. But in terms of like, if someone wants to approach working with disabled people, I don't know. Because I honestly like I don't, I don't think there should be a difference. You, you should be asking deep questions about a person's medical condition and reality if you're going to be taking responsibility for their health, which is I mean, depending on the severity, again, some people are just having fun, and there's levels to the shit. But I think, right, like the price of dominance, the price of topping is responsibility. Right? So it's like, if you're going to be like, "Yeah, I'm going to torture you for six hours," and you're going to be like, and you're not going to take into account their medical condition, then you're not being responsible to that person. Like they're, they're trusting you with their life. I mean, depending on how serious you're doing. But you know, even just like basic ties, you can lose a hand, right? If you - they're wrong, someone's trusting you with deep, intimate parts of themselves, as well as their bodily being, their mental health. And so I think you you need to take that equally seriously in every case and if you are, then people will tell you, you know I'm saying, disabled people know they're disabled, they're not going to like, oh, what suddenly this happened? Like, no, they're gonna be like - They're gonna be able to know. And the experienced bottoms who I love, I love working with experienced bottoms, because they're so fucking communicative. Right? And they know every - you know? So I think the skill of bottoming, right because it's a skill set like topping is a skill set, domming is a skill set, bottoming is a skill set in and of itself and should be respected and treated as such. And part of that is a sort of deep bodily awareness, right, and an ability to communicate with fine tune precision, about what your body's doing, and about how you feel at um, at any moment. So the more experienced ones will just go with that. But not everyone is experienced. And so you need to I think if you're approaching that responsibly, you need to be sort of pushing them to give you as much detail as you can, which I think again, talk about my stuff up here as I'm, I'm - give me an essay. You know what I'm saying like, I would love that. One of my favorite, I don't think this will de-anonymize them too much. I session with a bottom who has a fuckin' manual about themselves. It's a 25 page document with like hypertext. And it's my favorite fucking thing in the entire world. I tell people - even before I met this person, I'm like, Good things come with instruction manuals, you know what I'm saying? Like, give me that. And I think you as a top, as a Dom, if you don't have that you should be trying to recreate that as much as you can, of course, add a commensurate level to the intensity of the thing that you're doing. If that answered your question at all.
Noor A. 28:35
Yeah, no, it absolutely did. Okay, so I think what I want to ask you now, and you can share as little or as much as you want. Is there a favorite scene or session that you have done?
Cherry 28:59
That's man, they're all my babies. I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't choose. I love them all equally. Um I'm going to rephrase your question a little bit so I can answer it easier, which is I think - If I think back on my career within within BDSM like the ones that have left the biggest impression on me are honestly not even like the most hardcore intense things that I've that I've that I've - I've done I think that they're more about the the experience that that person was able to have like - there's this one I'll never forget it where this person - again I don't care about what type of sub A person is or I think that those you know, just like genres or something like yeah, they're generally descriptive, but there's an infinite amount of complexity and that's one of my favorite things to do is you know, I call it my garden right? You'd like making filthy fucked up little flowers that are perfectly you know individual to to um that that um, person but there was there was some childishness, right to this, some of the I blanking on the term like baby girl stuff with them. And we were in a session and they sort of flipped a switch. And they had this moment where they were essentially, like, reliving sexual assault, as they had experienced as a child. I was able to be there with them for that, right, and sort of provide, which is what, like, provide structure and space, even though you know, you're kind of leaning into it. But yeah, that was that was that was incredibly powerful that I have I have some some some moments like that, that left an impression on me - do want to caveat for anyone potentially listening to this, that kink is not therapy. And there are plenty of terrible, horrible reactions to the things that happen. And you're in those spaces, and bad shit happens sometimes, too. But occasionally, there are some beautiful, cathartic moments.
Noor A. 31:12
One thing I talked with another person about is the shame that's associated with a lot of disability experiences, feelings, as well as a lot of shame for the things that you desire in like kink and BDSM. And I'm not exactly sure what the connection is, but what you were just talking about reminds me of that, of like, there being the space to transform negative feelings, like shame, into something different.
Cherry 31:53
That's a beautiful point, I'm going to push back briefly on on the on the, on the take negative emotion and then transform it, right. And let's just stick with Transform. Because one of the things that I think at core we're dealing with in BDSM is trauma, right? That is the that is really the fundamental tool of BDSM is trauma. And one of the things that trauma is, among many, is a transformative force, right? Just what - it makes the brain plastic as fuck, right? You can understand why - I mean, okay, I'm not a doctor, I am a person who has tortured many people. So I this is this is completely biased. And there's a huge amount of selection bias and the people who are signing up for this, so I want to avoid making a general statement about the human race, however, to make a general statement about the human race, um, trauma, I think, when you're in that state, as you know, evolution happens, trauma happens, and you need to move fast, you need to change fast, something's going on, something needs to happen, right? Trauma puts that brain in that state, and it makes it moldable. And people know this, right? This is why the the army, cults, abusive partners, sex traffickers, there's an emphasis on traumatizing a person. Combined with isolating person, those are two very important pieces, trauma and isolation. Because the trauma provides the force for change. And the isolation provides the fine tuned control over the environmental variables that force a person towards the change that you that you'd like them to make. Right? So trauma is by nature transforming. And you can use that as a tool for bad or good or just to look around and find out - though, I'll add that I think pleasure is, is provides the same function. Trauma and pleasure both make the brain very, very plastic, right? And you want to train or enforce something in a person, then time and dopamine and time and trauma, and who you know, give me honestly, theoretically, give me a month and those two things, I'll give you a different person in some way.
Noor A. 34:16
That's - I'm glad that you said that. I feel like honestly, I need to, like re-listen to that. And like chew on it again, to like, fully appreciate everything that you're saying.
Cherry 34:27
I almost wrote a manual on making a new personality, but I decided that it would probably be - I didn't want to give that up.
Noor A. 34:35
Like maybe I don't want anyone to be able to have this - [laughs]
Cherry 34:38
I was I was writing like, and I was talking to a lot of people because like, should I? And then like I wrote this whole preamble about why I was going to do it, and why I was still going to do it and I read it through and I was like, I don't think any of these are good enough reasons. So yeah, because it is like I've read I've gone out I've - first of all just as a fascinating sight and I will send this to you because you should read it. Trigger warnings abound. But there's a document that is essentially the - it's heavily redacted, but it is the sort of cookbook for Guantanamo, about the enhanced interrogation techniques. First of all, it's an incredible use of doublespeak and language they only speak about - they call them, which is, talking about play, they call them roleplay scenarios. And they talk about teachers and students exclusively. It's nuts, but like they're, you have to read between the lines a lot, but like, they know that right? The think about like boot camp in the military, right? They isolate you for six months, and they fuck you up. Right, they traumatize you, they wake you up randomly like, and they're, they're doing that on purpose. Like and that is what like you're trying to make some trying to make a soldier. Yeah, that makes sense. Cults do the same thing. Right? It's the, it's, it's like, it's not a secret, like people use this. We use this in our daily lives and in society all the time.
Noor A. 36:03
You know, what really stood out to me when you said that is you said, they did that on purpose. Right with boot camp, like they did that on purpose. And it's interesting, because like, I'm thinking like, Yes, I put myself in those scenarios, like in BDSM specifically, I put those I do those things on purpose also. But it's I'm the one that's like making that decision to do it on purpose, right? Instead of the government or, or, you know, whoever.
Cherry 36:34
And there are definitely people that sign up for that on purpose. I think that this like sex traffickers would be the worst visual, like no one's choosing that, that is a person who is isolated from society and doing this completely, forcibly. And again, the one there's a there's a really interesting, open question that I talk about with people in my circle who have the proclativities that I have about sort of a chicken or the egg about, like, how much can you create versus how much how much are you just uncovering? Right? Like, are you giving a person new fetishes, or are you uncovering something that was already there? And, and so it same thing with like, the military or something like that. I don't know. I think it's a really interesting question. And I would love more dialogue about it like the limit. Okay. Yes, trauma and pleasure, are transformative forces. What's the limit there? Like, can you literally do things can you literally, you know, change a person? Eh, to a degree. Um, in order to do a properly scientific study, you'd have to break a number of moral and ethical codes, so you'll never find out because the sample size will always be biased by people who consent to that.
Noor A. 37:51
I can, I think that we can at least say qualitatively, though, from a lot of people's experience that like, there is definitely a change that happens. Like, I know, for me, like me personally, regardless of like, so many different things, or, or so many other things that could be changed, I myself as and how I relate to myself has fundamentally changed as I've become more dedicated to my pursuit of BDSM and desire and things like that. And then that, in turn, right, fundamentally changes the way that I interact with the world. Right? And like how that becomes sort of like a domino effect.
Cherry 38:34
Yeah. 100%. You definitely - I'm, I lean towards the side that you can, you can create, with with using using using those those those tools, but it's, it's an open question. So like I one of my favorite things to do is like that, you know, the BDSM like score test, it's it's really bullshit and it doesn't do anything but what it is really interesting for is when I start training with somebody like you do that and then over time you kind of keep doing that and watching certain things rise and other things fall is fascinating. I love watching "Brat" drop slowly -
Noor A. 39:14
[laughs]
Cherry 39:14
- the list and I'm gonna I'm gonna get in trouble for this one specifically, but I think just I don't necessarily have to but I think brattness is related to and it's a wonderful thing in play. And I don't want to you know, everyone's everyone's got different ways, but I think that it's related to fear. Honestly, most right. I think I've met a lot of people who are like, I'm bratty, and I'm gonna brat and like, okay, that's fine. I'm not like Brat tamer or anything, but the more comfortable they become with their wants, with - and the more trusting they become of you, right, of the authority there, then the less they want to do that. Because why would they? That's also - you know, you also gotta do particular things for that. But I kind of was just on this side that I'm gonna get yelled at for. But.
Noor A. 40:06
[laughs] Is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't talked about? Or maybe we talked about it briefly and you're like, I want to talk about this more.
Cherry 40:16
Um, I think the pleasure thing, because I've been thinking about that, as we talked, and that's also something that I'm, I think about, particularly recently, a lot in my life, because I talk and also with with the disabilities is my dopamine receptors are fucked, like, they basically don't work. You know, your first question like, what's your energy levels, like, every day is just fuckin baseline, which also, I think plays into the way that I experience sexuality, where it's like, coming feels nice. But like, I've talked with people about it, and they're like, yeah, like, I feel better the whole day afterwards, and I'm like what the fuck it, like, What are you talking about? You know what I'm saying, like? It's like it goes, pleasure for me goes from physical sensational pleasures, like, you know, it's from a zero to a two, briefly and then immediately back again. Right? So I definitely think that, that is a big piece of why I found this and why it works. And the way that I interact sexually, is very, very deeply related to the experience and the different experiences of pleasure. Yeah, and there's, and then there's just so much there, too. Like I remember. An old sub had reached out because they were about to do a session involving waterboarding. And the top was very adamant about like, you know, prove that you've done this before to me, because I'm not going to do this. And like, can you, because I was the one who did it? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And one of the questions I asked was like, did I like it? Because I think that the top was asking there was like, No, you hated it, but you enjoy hating it. Right? And so it's just it's such an interesting thing about why, why a sub or a bottom wants to go there to do something that is actively unpleasurable. And people do talk about the idea that, you know, pain and pleasure are very, basically the same signal in the in the brain. And I think that that's hugely related, but I don't know, I think it's so much more than that. Like you think about fetishes, fetishes is so much about doing the wrong thing in society. That's so much that basically 90% of fetishes is like, Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. Like, what the - whether like. So there's this weird pleasure thing that comes from doing things that you shouldn't, I think, um, I don't know. It's yeah, it's, it's, there's a lot going on there. And I don't know. But yeah, I guess just, we can talk more about that. Because that's fucking fascinating.
Noor A. 42:54
Yeah, what are - so I think I'm curious how you would describe the difference between intimacy and pleasure? Or if there is one?
Cherry 43:08
I'm not the person to ask, they're -
Noor A. 43:10
Okay.
Cherry 43:11
None, whatso- I don't even know what you mean. I'm gonna be honest like, yeah, what could - What do you mean by that? Could you -
Noor A. 43:19
Yeah. Some kind of some wandering - We've been talking about pleasure. We've been talking about how like, pleasure can look different. Like, it's like, No, you didn't enjoy it. You didn't - you enjoyed hating it. Right? It wasn't like pleasure. It was exactly, but you enjoyed it. And I'm wondering if maybe, what is bringing the joy or that experience is intimacy?
Cherry 43:49
Yeah, okay. I see what you're getting at, I think. The idea of being seen, right, I think for in, that's a big thing that comes up, I think, across the board, in sessions in D/s, not just with me, definitely, you know, in my experience, but I think that this is pretty general the idea of like, I know what you are, right? Like you like you filthy, disgusting little thing. I know, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, what's the what's the, you know, here, you can be yourself, here you can be honest, this is but you know, all all that sometimes honesty, truth and an experience of this thing, you shouldn't be in the world. And then I think, having that experience and having it not be negative and having it be rewarded. I mean, other people have talked about this plenty, but I definitely think that that's there. So I would say yeah, to your question. I think that that being seen for this in this and then having a - I think it's less about necessarily a positive reinforcement, but having a place I think is huge in BDSM. The idea that, which is again in my self as well, you know what you are, you know what your role is, you know, very clearly, very, very literally and you get to be that - seen, held in some way. I definitely think that that's a that um, that's a big piece of it
Noor A. 45:20
It also makes me think about how society, thinking about disability, how society views disabled people as asexual or aromantic or a, you know, all of those things. Right? And, yeah, do you have thoughts on that?
Cherry 45:38
Well, I got another three hours on that.
Noor A. 45:40
[laughs]
Cherry 45:43
Yeah, I don't, I don't have - I struggle, this is in terms of like, things I struggle with still in with my disability is very much that again, just interacting with other people. Because that's really when we're talking about aromantic asexual what you're talking about is, what's it like interacting with other people for you? Right, beyond a hi on the street thing? And I kind of forgot your question. Because I'm just like, that idea is, is so so difficult. And there's there's other stuff going on. Like, again, like there's so many bottoms and subs who have chronic pain. And I think that there's a very clear idea of like, you are taking autonomy over that. Right? Like you are, you are in pain, but you're choosing to have this pain. Right. And then I think that that gives people something so there's so there's definitely that. With regard to like, viewing, you know, disabled people as somehow subhuman in that way. Because I think so much of our definition of humanity is social-ness. Right. And, and, and how we interact with people. And there's this very complex interplay between the difference between being human and being humanity. And right, like the individual versus the collective, which all feeds back into each other in a you know, never ending loop. But to speak for myself to try not to speak for the world at large, I would say that my experience of disability is very much about a fundamental difficulty being humanity, right? I can be me alone in mine, I don't go I didn't like stay within my very controlled space, I've crafted a life for myself, that I never have to leave, right. Because as soon as I go out there, I basically fall the fuck apart, saying I can do like 30 minutes to an hour, or, you know, I can do longer than that. But I've got to, like, turn on the, you know, basically, like, you know, get ready for fucking war and then go to go outside for a while, you know? And, and so, yeah, I guess I'm gonna stop ranting there and see if you have any clarifying questions that might keep that from spiraling.
Noor A. 48:02
There was like a few things kind of like we've been chatting about. And maybe I think maybe the direction I want to go now is thinking about being disabled in the BDSM community, right, quote, unquote.
Cherry 48:23
I was thinking exactly, yes. Let's fucking go. Yeah, because that's bullshit. And we got to fucking talk about that. Because that shit's fucking ridiculous.
Noor A. 48:31
So yeah, I would love to hear kind of like, what has your experience been like?
Cherry 48:37
Not great. Not that awesome. I mean, on a certain level, I don't think it's anyone's fault. Like, I don't think anyone's doing anything particularly wrong. I mean, disability is a unique issue. I think, in society in that, like, there's no fundamental reason beyond arbitrary humanity, society rules that the life of a woman should be any harder than the life of a man, that's completely, you know, arbitrary made up shit, that's bad. And we should just stop doing that and life would be better. Same for blackness, same queerness blah, blah, blah, disability gets a little bit different and that, no life's just hard, right? Like, that's just just yeah, like, sorry, you know, I kind of push back on this within the disability social movement, which is again, I'm fully like people should have people should be able to go outside, things should be accessible. You know, people deserve to participate in the world and have intimate connections and experience the world in a way that's, they deserve that any human deserves that. And what I push back on is anything where people like, Oh, it's a superpower. Like, oh, you can do anything you want to do. Like, I think the experience of disability is really fun to me. It's like I can't walk up those stairs. There's I can't there's there's there. I could literally drag myself up them. You know, and sometimes Yeah, fuck you I'm gonna do that just because fuck you, but like, No, that was a lot harder, you know. And there's no amount of will there's, there's, there's there's no amount of get up and go, there's no amount of dedication, there's no amount of pills, there's no amount of, you know, thing you're going to do to me that's going to make walking up those stairs easier for me. It's just going to be like that. So again, I don't I'm not trying to villainize anybody but the BDSM community's a community, and so it's built around people interacting with each other, which - and again, as that scales up, that's events, classes, parties, you know, conventions, all of which are fundamentally very difficult for anyone who's disabled. And I don't square in that circle is hard. Yeah. Like, what the fuck do you do? You know, try to make it more accessible, like, Yeah, but you're never going to make a convention more accessible to me, that by nature, it's a loud room full of people who are talking to each other. And that's never going to be that's never going to be cool for me, you know? So, you know, and also the people do have some weirdness. I think, for people who are outside of it a bit. There's a there's, there's a there's a distrust, and also, you know, I think people be like, Oh, how long have you been doing BDSM? It's like, oh, this long, and they're like, Well, how long have you been in the community? It's like, Why the fuck are those different things? You know what I'm saying? Like, so it wasn't real BDSM until I went to a fuckin party, like, get the fuck out, you know what I'm saying?
Noor A. 51:36
Yeah. So - Yeah. I kind of feel like one of the things you're talking about also or are alluding to is like the elitism that's like within the community.
Cherry 51:49
Oh, but that's fucking humans. That's not us. We just We love that shit. Man. The fucking cool kids in the fucking you know who's who's got the most who's got the prettiest? Who's the blah blah? Ya no that fuck that shit. I don't know if that's related to disability, that's just fucking humanity being humanity. As annoying as it is. I find that in rope the most I avoided rope for most of my life. And I've been doing this for God, almost 11 years now. And I only started doing rope like two year two, three years ago because I had a sub who was a very experienced rope bottom that got me into it. And on that one to one level. I was like, Oh, this is great. Like, this is everything I want to do. You know, I'm saying this is beautiful. This is art. This is technical. This is you know, there's wonderful stuff going on here. But as a person, I never would have gotten into it if it wasn't for that. Because of the way the way that shit fucking goes. It's the most pretentious shit. Ever.
Noor A. 52:49
I think -
Cherry 52:49
It's so cool. It should like it's so fucking cool. Like, as soon as like, I just got my friend into it. And he's not even that kinky. You know what I'm saying? But it's just it's great. It's fun. It is fun. You know, talk about play like this other shit that like it's not play rope like yeah, let's go fuck around. You know what I'm saying? And that's I feel like that that's such a place that that is very vanilla to me in that that like ropes very very vanilla to me. Like it's it's like dance. You know what I'm saying? Like yeah, you're doing something with with a partner but clothes can stay on whatever. But people hype it up like they're fucking Michelangelo or some fucking shit. It's like you're fucking putting some rope on somebody like it's beautiful. Don't get me wrong, and it takes skill. And it's hard and deserves to be respected but the cool kid fucking bullshit. So, annoying.
Noor A. 53:38
The hierarchy of of, of like, Oh, you haven't done this kind of thing yet? You're not really like a pro. Right? Oh, you haven't done this yet? Oh, you don't really know.
Cherry 53:48
Have you? Have you studied in Europe? No. Fuck you. Okay, no, I haven't fucking studied in fucking Europe. And also, I don't think that's - that shit. And I think that there's a piece of that that does arise naturally out of you know, there is a Western bondage tradition. And I don't think we talk about that enough. We don't have to just pull from the Japanese shit, which is beautiful. Incredible, but there's a - people like tying people up. Okay. They like there's a long history that before anyone from the west ever saw that shit. Motherfuckers were doing some kinky, weird shit. We've always been doing that, right. But within the Japanese tra- tradition, it's very much the way that they do things to paint a broad stroke, which is fundamentally incorrect. But with the sort of like the like the master, the student, you learn and then you have to take time, and you earn that respect. And that's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And so I think that that comes from a really real place, but when that gets translated in like that doesn't really mesh with the way our culture works in the same way, we don't we don't really have the same and it creates I think this sort of what we turn it into which makes a lot of sense, if you think about it like for us, like we turn it into, like pop stars, you know what I'm saying? Like we turn it into like the coolest kid as, as opposed to like the like the study master sort of thing.
Noor A. 55:11
Yeah. And I think there's also something to be said about, like Shibari having like, very clear cultural and specific roots. And then as you said, but like tying people up, that's, everyone's been doing that.
Cherry 55:26
Yeah. Which is not to downplay, like, the importance and the influence of that tradition, because it's huge, right? Like, clearly, like. That is wonderful and beautiful. And there's so much to um to learn from it. But there's a lot of other shit going on.
Noor A. 55:39
Right.
Cherry 55:40
Yeah. And I think that there is a nice move towards that, like people are really trying to push for like, not calling it shibari, just call it rope bondage. But unless you're, I think, like, if you're going to shibari, you better be you better have gone to Japan, right? That that was one of those guys, and then fucking did that, in which case, great, you're doing Shibari. Right. But if you're not doing that, you're not doing that. And they teach in a completely different way. Like, from my understanding, which is very limited. Like, in the more there's a distinction between the European and the American way of doing it. But like, you know, a lot of us start with like, the structures, right, like, here's how to do this structure, and then you do this structure. And then - but I have, my understanding of that is they start with, like, rope handling, right, and like the movement and the other thing, and then once you're good enough, they'll let you do more of the structures. And I could be very wrong about that. I'm very uneducated in that specifically, but in my understanding, it works differently. And I think I get I've gotten I think, I've had some interesting conversations with with people about they're like, oh, did you study in Europe? Like, what are you doing? It's a thing that people talk about. And it makes sense because that's kind of the the mecca of it for white people. Right? Is that. But I'm not a patriot by any means. Like, fuck America, you know what I'm saying, fuck the government, all that shit. Yeah, literally. But I'm very proud. And I wish we talked more about it. I wish there was more of an identity for us just being in the way that we do things. And that that affects the way that we do things like rope and bondage where it's like, no, I just fucking went out and tried some shit. You know what I'm saying? Like I fuckin went out. And I put some stuff together and I didn't have a master I didn't have you know, like, you needed some I picked up this from this guy and this from this guy. And then put it put it together. And I'm proud of that. You know, I'm most of my rope education has come from experienced bottoms. Not from not from rope tops at all. Just like labbing with experienced good bottoms. And honestly, that's awesome. I wish that's the way like, fucking particularly rope. Listen to the - fuck the tops, honestly. Do you want it? Like, literally, it's not hard to learn the structure, work with a bottom who knows about what hurts, what's wrong with them, and then do that. I love that. I want I want that to be more of what we do here. As a as a thing.
Noor A. 58:00
Yeah. And I think like also, like within the realm of like disability, we talk about access in the literal sense of like, is that wheelchair accessible? Are there elevators, there's those things, but then there's also the access piece of like money of, you know, do you have a car? Do you have? Like, are you able to drive a car, you know, like, in order to go to these events, or like things like that, like? So thinking about like, oh, have you ever gone to - have you ever studied in Europe? It's like, okay, well, I don't have two grand lying around for a flight.
Cherry 58:30
What the fuck's wrong with you? No! [laughs]
Noor A. 58:34
And so I think it's, you know, that's another interesting part about kink and BDSM is the different ways that access is limited. More than just in like the, like, literal sense of like, you know what I mean?
Cherry 58:49
Yeah, no, absolutely. Like you think about, oh, my God, and I'm also coming from it at clearly as a top and dominant. So I think you get a bit - you avoid a lot of bullshit, by doing that, right? Because I'm not like, there's no guy out there who's like, "Yeah, this and then come do stuff with me." And then as like, a new bottom like, yeah, like we you know, we - the BDSM community fetishizes experience, which makes sense, because there's no degree, right. There is no qualification here, beyond how long ago - that's kind of the only metric that we have. But so I think that yeah, that's sort of the way a lot of people get access to it is via somebody, you know, and that's also just the way that humans work is like, Who do you trust? People that you're in some way that you can form some sort of connection to, but that in and of itself is very, very limiting if you're not going to do it through parties and conventions and scenes, which are, as we said, very difficult to anyone who who's disabled and the way you're gonna get into that is via one individual, which is going to potentially create this situation for a lot of harm and manipulation because your world in BDSM is being defined by that individual. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about that and trying to manage that, as I top people, I try not to work with newer bottoms anymore, frankly - no disrespect at all, I think it's wonderful, I'll happily give you knowledge. But and I'll do it, I'm not like, it's not a hard rule, you know what I'm saying. But, um, if I'm going to do it, just the idea that it's like, you need to go do this with other people too, like, you, I cannot be the only person that you're that you're doing this with because I'm doing it my way and, other people are doing it other ways. And you need to go experience that as as, as somebody to be able to fully consent to things, you need to have informed consent, you need to be informed and educated, which is again -
Noor A. 1:01:03
Literally about to say that. Oh, yes, um, so one of the things we've been, like, kind of talking about on and off is kind of the struggle to connect in different ways, whether it's access to going to conventions, or finding a space that is like, you have the capacity to visit, right, or something like that, um, what are ways that you've been able to connect with people in your, in your life, in the BDSM community?
Cherry
In my life, or in the BDSM community?
Noor A.
In the BDSM community.
Cherry 1:01:28
Okay. Um, I gotta give a shout out 100% to the local rope group here, which is, you know, smaller and run by led by bottoms, which has been a wonderful accepting space for for me, and that was, you know, that's been really my inroad into trying to interact with the, trying to actually engage in the kink community more. And they've been lovely. And, and I'm very appreciative of, of them. It's, it's funny, like, they, they were, they were, I kind of got to them as they were starting out this, this, this new thing, because there's a lot of other groups and they're like, these are all bullshit, problematic, we're gonna go try our own thing. It's, I'm very happy for them, because it's growing, you know, and that's wonderful. And they put in the work, and they deserve that. And that's, and it's beautiful, and more people get to connect with it. But the, I think I was luckily able to get in when there were like, three people. You know, and it was super chill. And just like people like, hey, like, what's up? Like, we're just doing this, like, there's no, particularly if you're going to bring in like a teacher who's going to like, sit me down and be like, "Alright," I'm gonna be like, get the fuck out. You know, I'm saying, but because it was it was that it was it was lovely. And I was able to interact with that, it was quiet. It was it was calm. And that was very helpful. But I it's funny to see as it as it grows, and again, very happy for them. But it does get more difficult for me to interact with them.
Noor A. 1:03:01
I totally resonate with that. I've been to a handful of parties out here on the West Coast, and there is the perfect number is like 30 or under - if it's 30 or under, I can manage it.
Cherry 1:03:16
30? Shout out to you.
Noor A. 1:03:18
I can -
Cherry 1:03:18
I'm not - that'd be a lot for me. Wonderful, great. I also I also live in a smaller place with with - it has a much smaller population than one of the main cities, which I assume from - that you live in so that that - 30 would be very difficult for me. If I walked - particularly raw, if I walked into a room with like, 30 people I might be like, and I'm leaving. Right?
Noor A. 1:03:43
Yeah. So here's the here's the trick. I knew the organizers.
Cherry 1:03:49
See, for the record, anyone who has mental disabilities that relate to interacting with social - show up early and help people set up.
Noor A. 1:03:56
Yes.
Cherry 1:03:57
Because once you're in, you're just set up, they don't got to talk to nobody, right? You don't got to you've got a job, you're doing the thing. And then and then you're there and you can just hang out and fuckin - that's the way. See? Yeah, that's the way.
Noor A. 1:04:08
I absolutely agree with that. That is absolutely how I've been able to connect with folks.
Cherry 1:04:13
Yeah, and I think we kind of keep going on the - of like the the experience with being disabled in BDSM. Particularly, I guess socially, right. Like I'm physically like, my body moves fine, right? Like any of my stuff's here. And again, as the top as a top and dominant who's more interested, and I'm, you know, the my practice is pretty far out there. Right? Like I'm very interested in providing and facilitating extreme experiences, and sort of helping a person - one, I just, yeah, I want to fucking torture which is time. By the way, torture is all time. Anyone can survive two hours. Okay. Give me a week, right? Like, week long sessions like some that's when the interesting shit happens to me right? And most people aren't going to do that. And that's fine and wonderful. But like, I'm very much here in this thing and trying to help people and facilitate and sort of almost coach people who are interested in living more fully embodied, like fetishes in that way. You know, I'm fascinated by people who make physical life changes based on sexuality. Right? Like, like, you know, and that could be anything from like people getting tattoos to body modification to you know, sleeping in a box in somebody's house, right I'm fascinated by those people. And I like working with those people to sort of make that work in the in the in the best way that it can - not even for me, like I don't collar people because that's, that's like marriage to me. It's a ring around someone's neck, like how are we not thinking - I don't - what's the - right, like that's a that's a big thing. I'm honestly trying to be like, I'm trying to, it's a difficult thing to manage, because such an important piece of submission is for you. Right, about shame, and intimacy and being seen, one of the core experiences I think of submission is I'm your slut I'm your your trash bag. I'm your - right, I'm doing this for you, I submit to you, like there's so much that centers the dominant right in the language in the experience, and that's fucking dangerous as shit man, like you, I think - I have not found a way yet to completely throw it out. But the like, if you're trying to make - I I make better submissives for the community, I consider it a community service. Just like better, better whores, more filthier whores, please, enjoy.
Noor A. 1:06:49
Yay! [laughs]
Cherry 1:06:51
I'll fucking sign you. So either you better know who the fuck, you know, say thank you. But with that there's this very important interplay with like, you have to be working and aware constantly, you're trying to make this center of gravity them, which is also gets into the fucked up thing about I think the way that neurotypical people deal with kink is so romantic, and is so relationship based, even if it's poly, like, it's very much like I'm in a relationship with this person, which is also why I like the professional shit more. And one of the reasons I go with dominatrix is because one of the gender fuckery and two, I think it entombs, a more formal relationship. And because that romantic shit, like, if you're in a five year long relationship, that's heavy D/s, where you're being trained to do stuff, you're, it works like the the risk profile in training is different than anything else, because the risk profile in rope in a session and hitting is you do something wrong, right? I hit you in the wrong spot, and it breaks a bone. The risk profile for heavy D/s and training is that it works. Right? Because it's like, it's a fucking epidemic in the fucking community of like, heavy subs, who - a romantic relationship ends, you don't talk to each other. Right?
Noor A. 1:08:11
Yeah.
Cherry 1:08:12
You fucking walk away, you've trained that person for 10 fucking years. They can't come anymore, except in a very specific context of you, particularly if you've centered yourself, then that it's you can tell it's a thing people talk about, it's like, it's fucked up. You have to untrain which is harder to do than training. Right? It's very easy to habituate something it's very difficult to un-habituate something and it creates these these these these problems because we almost neurotypicals I think over-relationship-ify things about about about kink, which can lead to a lot of issues.
Noor A. 1:08:53
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, I am running out of steam.
Cherry 1:09:03
Oh, good. I hope I hope I haven't just ranted too much over the over the thing. So.
Noor A. 1:09:09
This has been such a pleasure. Honestly, I would love if we could talk again sometime. But you know that the, you know, low spoons, low energy kind of life. So -
Cherry 1:09:21
One of the most important moments in my life was when my that guy, my uncle who I was talking about, we were in the middle of a dinner party, and he stands up and says goodbye to everybody and walked the fuck out. And I was you can do and I've been doing that ever since as soon as you are fucking done with a thing. Get the fuck out. So 100% Don't worry.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai & edited by Luca
Disability & BDSM: Cherry Recently